Hey guys I'm not sure if anyone here has had this problem.

Often when I go to start my rolla, especially in cold weather, I will just get a "click" of the relay without the engine turning. I am 99.9% sure this is caused by worn starter contacts, which are a common problem on all old toyota trucks and cars alike.

I've had difficulty sourcing the contact set and I don't want to purchase a completely new starter for a 10$ part kit.

So my question is: has anyone come across this problem before? And where did you find your parts?

ps- yes I called the dealership.. they pretty much just told me they don't carry parts like that and to buy a new starter

Look in your yellow pages for an auto electric shop. They will sell you the contacts for a few bucks. Try a NAPA store. WHATEVER YOU DO, just replace the contacts. It's easy. Avoid the made in China replacement starters or lousy rebuilt starters. Keep your original starter.
Aside from the contacts, these starters are good for a million miles. Seriously.

Sometimes when starting mine, the car starts fine but theres a grinding noise at the very end. My uneducated guess is that its grinding on the disengage.

Some rare occasions it grinds when I first start the key, but this is VERY rare.

I was going to get a new/rebuilt starter put in, but now I'm second guessing it?

Dylan, It sounds like the starter bendix drive is sticking. Remove the starter. Clean and lubricate the part were the bendix slides on the armature. Might as well replace the contacts in the starter while you have it removed.

I looked on NAPA's site, and it looks like the starter brushes (contacts) are about $20.  The brushes with the holder are $32... I'd consider spending the extra $12 to replace the assembly.  But the shop manual does show how to check if the holder is OK.

Brushes
http://www.napaonline.com/Search/Detail.aspx?A=ECHE591_0195996523&An=599001+101988+50070+2070008

Brushes with holder
http://www.napaonline.com/Search/Detail.aspx?A=ECHE608_0065720003&An=599001+101988+50070+2070008

Also someone posted this over at TN:

http://www.4crawler.com/4x4/CheapTricks/Starter.shtml

You can order contacts (aka brushes) from this place.  They're $5 each (and you need 2), so $10 plus shipping isn't so bad.  There are different types of contacts apparently, I think because there are at least two different types of starters in Toyotas (at least for the All-Trac, in the FSM it shows two types).  So you have to measure to make sure which contacts you need.

I just need to figure out how to get the starter out in the first place (see my other post in the other topic)...

There were 2 sizes of starter used for these vehicles (and many other Toyota's that year) I'm not sure on the exact numbers but it was like a 95kw and a 110kw model were available. I know my car has the 95kw (or smaller whatever the number is) because its from Japan, and vehicles intended to be sold in warmer climates were given the smaller starter.

Canadian models and likely any bound for Russia or Northern Europe would have had the 110kw to give it a little extra spin on those cold days. =P

Ah OK.  I think mine was from Pennsylvania, so I might have the more robust starter.  I'll find out eventually.

So... how did you remove the starter??  I've been hovering around the engine bay for an hour or so, looking for the starter, looking for the bolts that hold it in place, etc.  It seems to me that the easiest method will be to remove the intake manifold... which isn't really all that easy of a method   Partly because it looks like the fuel rail will have to come off in order to remove the intake manifold.  I've never messed with injectors or a fuel rail before... not sure what to expect with that.  I know I'm going to be labeling hoses like crazy so nothing goes back in the wrong place.  Thank God I have the week following Christmas off from work!  I'm going to need it

I have never removed mine, the two models are interchangeable on the 4AFE block I know that much.

You shouldn't have to take all that off to get to the starter?? I'm thinking its more accessible from the bottom?? I don't know though...

Transfer case is in the way from underneath... standing on the passenger side and looking into the engine bay, there is way too much stuff in the way.  Like the intake manifold   Standing on the driver side, I can see the starter through a small gap between the air intake and some other stuff, but there would be no way to get at one of the bolts...

You don't need to remove the intake manifold. There are 2 bolts plus 2 electircal connections. It comes out from the top on the passenger side. There are heater hoses in the way. Just secure them away to the side. The air intake tube needs to come out. There is a small 2 wire diff lock indicator switch under the starter that is easy to damage if you aren't careful (at least on manual transmission cars). I would unplug that connector as well (2 wires).
It's a pain in the a$$ if you've never done a starter before. After you've done it once, it's about a half hour job to remove and reinstall the starter not including replacing the starter contacts. When you replace the contacts, clean the copper plunger contact areas up with sandpaper, too.

My advise is to leave the brushes alone. The brushes aren't causing your problem. Brushes are brushes. Contacts are contacts. They are not the same thing. Don't worry about brushes, brush holders, etc. Just get the contacts. You'll have a chance to inspect the brushes anyway when you have the starter out. My auto electric repair shop sold me the copper contacts for $3. This job is WELL WORTH IT if you're willing to invest a little sweat equity. Hope this helps.

Thanks, it does... I just don't see how I'm going to get the starter out from the passenger side.  Does your All-Trac have power steering?  I think that is also in the way.  I'll check again tomorrow after work.

Should I drain some coolant before removing the heater hoses to make a little less of a mess?  It just seems like an awkward angle, getting at the starter from the passenger side...

Well, there is no way that starter is coming out from the passenger side.  The power steering reservoir and lines are in the way, among other things.  So I've gone ahead with starting to remove the IM in order to facilitate an easier removal of the starter.

This is the biggest opening on the passenger side... I can't get my hand in there very well, let alone the starter once it's removed.



Below is where I'm at so far.  Fuel rail, wiring harness (all the way to the damn alternator, haha), hoses, etc.  Marked everything so I don't screw it up on re-installation.  Tomorrow is removal of the IM, and probably the starter.  If I have time I'll start taking apart the starter solenoid...



I'm going to consider taking my starter to a shop to have it rebuilt, instead of DIY.  Have them check the whole thing, bearings etc., and replace the contacts.  If I had a functional multimeter I'd check everything over myself.  I could borrow one from my stepdad, so we'll see... I just want this to be done with, I haven't really driven the wagon in a while and I miss it

Sorry. I meant drivers side.

For motor 4A-FE released starter power 0.8 kW, 1.0 kW and 2.2 kW. Available in two types, with the usual gear and planetary gear.

hahah My numbers were just a little bit high!! =P

2.2kw! Holy thats a huge jump!

Quoted from dylangumby

There were 2 sizes of starter used for these vehicles (and many other Toyota's that year) I'm not sure on the exact numbers but it was like a 95kw and a 110kw model were available. I know my car has the 95kw (or smaller whatever the number is) because its from Japan, and vehicles intended to be sold in warmer climates were given the smaller starter.

Canadian models and likely any bound for Russia or Northern Europe would have had the 110kw to give it a little extra spin on those cold days. =P

As far as I know, there were two starter motor models for the North American market, depending on the climate as you have indicated.  They are:
1.0 kW regular spec. Toyota part #28100-16080.
1.4 kW cold spec.     Toyota part #28100-16090.
These starters look similar but are not exactly alike; the 16080 regular spec starter has a rounded back on the starter coil housing, while the cold spec 16090 has four recessed wells.  In the photos below, the 1.0 kW starter is first, followed by the 1.4 kW starter.  This information comes from the Toyota Motor Electronics Part catalog and my shop manual.  Perhaps in Russia for the Carib Sprinters, there were larger kiloWatt motors due to even more extreme climate.

Nippon Denso (Denso) part numbers are 280-0251 and 280-0250; however, I don't know which part number corresponds with which kW, although, apparently the 280-0251 version is the standard part and the 280-0250 is the optional part. Therefore, I suspect that the 280-0251 is the 1.0 kW starter and the 280-0250 is the 1.4 kW starter, but I will check with Denso to be sure. Fortunately, their North American automotive aftermarket division is located in my hometown . . .

Quoted from scdevon

You don't need to remove the intake manifold. There are 2 bolts plus 2 electircal connections. It comes out from the top on the passenger side. There are heater hoses in the way. Just secure them away to the side. The air intake tube needs to come out. There is a small 2 wire diff lock indicator switch under the starter that is easy to damage if you aren't careful (at least on manual transmission cars). I would unplug that connector as well (2 wires).
It's a pain in the a$$ if you've never done a starter before. After you've done it once, it's about a half hour job to remove and reinstall the starter not including replacing the starter contacts. When you replace the contacts, clean the copper plunger contact areas up with sandpaper, too.

In June 2008, I replaced my starter using this method.  Normally, one could drop the starter from the bottom of the engine, but that's not possible with our A-T's because the transfer case blocks that route of access.  So, the way I did it was to remove the air cleaner, spread the wire looms and use cable ties to keep them away and make the large opening between the looms, undo the starter bolts, and remove through the hole formed by the loom wires, all done from the driver's side.  As scdevon says, it is difficult, and I actually had to rotate the starter around to the back side to get it out.  I then replaced the new starter using the reverse procedure.   It took me more than 2 hours to do this, because I had never done it this way before.  My starter is the 1.4 kW cold spec starter.

Unfortunately, I don't have any more pics. I dropped the camera into the engine bay, and the flash stopped working.  But what I did was to remove and insert the starter between the black wire looms.

Quoted from Rogue

Well, there is no way that starter is coming out from the passenger side.  The power steering reservoir and lines are in the way, among other things.  So I've gone ahead with starting to remove the IM in order to facilitate an easier removal of the starter.

This is the biggest opening on the passenger side... I can't get my hand in there very well, let alone the starter once it's removed.



Below is where I'm at so far.  Fuel rail, wiring harness (all the way to the damn alternator, haha), hoses, etc.  Marked everything so I don't screw it up on re-installation.  Tomorrow is removal of the IM, and probably the starter.  If I have time I'll start taking apart the starter solenoid...



I'm going to consider taking my starter to a shop to have it rebuilt, instead of DIY.  Have them check the whole thing, bearings etc., and replace the contacts.  If I had a functional multimeter I'd check everything over myself.  I could borrow one from my stepdad, so we'll see... I just want this to be done with, I haven't really driven the wagon in a while and I miss it

That brings up another problem I'm having, which I posted about on TN.  I can't get the intake manifold off... I'm 99% sure I got all the bolts off, but it won't budge.  I already bought a new gasket, which I justified because the valve cover gasket was leaking when I bought the wagon.  So that IM is coming off no matter what, lol.  I also bought a fuel injector gasket set because the ends that plug into the head are decaying (because of the oil leaking, or because of the corrosive nature of gas, I'm not sure).

Are you taking the IM off just to remove the starter?  If so, you don't need to do that. This is how I replaced my starter.  You can remove the starter by
1) Disconnect the batter from the wiring harness. Don't want to electrocute people: its the amps current not the volts that are dangerous here.
2) Remove the air intake/cleaner (you already have the air cleaner hose removed).
3) Remove the air intake/cleaner hose.
4) Disconnect the sensor cable to the 4WD transfer unit.
5) With plastic ties or string or rope, pull open the black wire looms part of the wiring harness.  Want an opening as large as possible to accommodate the passing through of the starter motor.
6) Undo the two starter bolts
7) You may also want to disconnect the starter solenoid cable and the starter motor wire. Makes it easier to turn around the starter in the confined space below the IM and above the transfer case.
Jiggle the starter to dislodge it from the ring gear of the transmission.
9) Pull starter out slowly; you may have to turn it around to get it all the way out. The wide part with the starter pinion gear barely fits through the hole formed by the separated loom wires.
10) Reinstall the new starter by doing the reverse.

Well, not strictly because of the starter... at first that was the case.  But scdevon and others mentioned it can be removed from the driver side by being careful... but as I was looking over things on the IM, and pulled out the fuel injectors, I decided I might as well replace all those gaskets.  The IM gasket might be OK still, but the top appears to have soaked in oil.  I don't understand why the IM won't pull loose, though... I'm going to be checking for any bolts that I missed, or as someone on TN mentioned, a support bracket going to the IM from the block.

Quoted from Rogue

Well, not strictly because of the starter... at first that was the case.  But scdevon and others mentioned it can be removed from the driver side by being careful... but as I was looking over things on the IM, and pulled out the fuel injectors, I decided I might as well replace all those gaskets.  The IM gasket might be OK still, but the top appears to have soaked in oil.  I don't understand why the IM won't pull loose, though... I'm going to be checking for any bolts that I missed, or as someone on TN mentioned, a support bracket going to the IM from the block.

The support bracket makes sense, since there is one that holds the exhaust manifold as well. When I had to remove my exhaust manifold, I couldn't get it off either even after removing the support bracket.  No amount of PB Blaster or WD40 seemed to work.  I eventually wedged a screwdriver between the gasket and tapped it slowly to wedge off the manifold; it appears that all that high heat just baked the oil and gasket to the manifold and the block.  

Sure enough there is a support bracket back there.  And I did miss one bolt, it was over on the dizzy side, under that "extra," smaller runner on the IM.

I have the starter out now, taking pics of things, will post more later.  I have my contacts out; the one from the battery cable is more worn than the other one.  I might have a rebuilt starter, though I can't be 100% sure.  I do have the 1.4kW version though.

http://www.4crawler.com/4x4/CheapTricks/Starter.shtml#OnlineOrdering

Looks like I have the type A contacts (both sides are the same) that this guy sells.  I measured the thickness of the contacts, and the copper pipe end cap I bought... pipe cap is thinner, so I'm going to just order these contacts and wait it out.  Sigh...

Y HALLO THAR!   I'm glad for a few reasons that I bothered to remove the IM, no matter how much of a PITA it was to do!  For one thing, I don't think I could have removed those wires from the starter with the IM in the way.  I had enough trouble getting them off with it removed!

Anyways... I ended up ordering the contacts labeled B and C on that link I posted above.  Reason being that I read a little more on that page, and it looks to me like it would be worthwhile to have the extra tab on the side for contacting the copper ring.  If anything, I can clip that piece off since those contacts are so close in dimensions to the type A contacts.

Here are some pics of the starter... like I mentioned this is the 1.4kW version.







This pic directly above... I cleaned that up, and coated the formerly rubber protector with a coat of liquid electrical tape.  It's just about fallen apart, but I'm not sure where I can get a replacement.  The more I see this starter, the more I think it's a remanufactured one.  Makes me wonder why *they* don't replace these parts if they're decaying!  I also cleaned up the copper contact ring with a brass brush, as well as any other surfaces.

There's a sort of gasket on the cap of the solenoid, I carefully pried this off with a small screwdriver (it has cracks all along the edges).  I gave it a bath in warm water and dish soap, then coated it generously with silicon grease (dielectric grease).  Dielectric grease and silicone spray are great for keeping rubber in good form.

Another reason I'm glad that I pulled the IM off, the intake ports had a lot of gunk in them.  I'm not sure how much that would affect performance, but I'd rather have it cleaned out than leave it be.







^ I'm not sure what that port actually does, just need to look it up in the FSM, but it had quite a build-up.

I can't wait to get those contacts so I can put this back together... I'm going to clean up the IM and head in the meantime.

Quoted from Rogue

I might have a rebuilt starter, though I can't be 100% sure.  

From my experience, the genuine Toyota starters have a label that says "Toyota 28100-16090.  NippponDenso {or Denso or ND} 280-0250" or something like this.  The rebuilt starters typically have aftermarket providers names like Bosch or Bendix, although Toyota does remanufacture starters as well:  http://www.toyotapartsandservice.com/pub/pdf/ProductCategories/REMAN_Starters.pdf

Quoted from Rogue

I'm going to just order these contacts and wait it out.  Sigh...

You can order contacts alone from Toyota as well; try a local dealership's parts department.

BTW, at the far end of that central plunger should be a small ball like a ball bearing; don't lose it when you remove the plunger.

Great pics, Rogue.
The contacts are the weak link in these starters. I always clean up the plunger contact areas with fine sandpaper, too.
I wiggle the starter free with the wires attached, THEN disconnect them when they are out in the open. Of course I attach the wires to the started before wiggling it into position when re-installing it, too. It's insane to struggle with disconnecting / attaching the cables with the starter in its installed position. I hope everybody realizes that. there is enough slack in the cables to wiggle the unit free THEN deal with the cables.

For the record, I DO NOT recommend getting the contacts C or B from the site I mentioned earlier.  They're not quite a decent fit, though I modified them to work by grinding off a section.  I'd recommend getting two of the contact type A from that site.  However, I'm thinking about getting two of the type D, since the "wings" are smaller on the sides than B or C have.  If anything they could be trimmed off and it would be just like an A.  Maybe that little bit of a wing would provide more contact on the starter...

Anyways here are more pics:






Putting them the other way round doesn't work.  There's less surface area contacting the plunger's copper ring...




Comparison of the contacts I bought and the old ones:




And finally, after three coats of liquid electrical tape, this old terminal cover is looking much better.  Maybe it will hold up another 150k miles

Nice photos of the starter.  Nice job on reinforcing the terminal cover; it tends to get hot from the engine and the rubber deteriorates.

Yes. Nice job. The replacement contacts have more contact area and should last longer. Just FYI, it shouldn't matter if the contact touches the wire in the upper part of the photo since the wire is in electircal contact with the copper contact anyway. The plunger connects the 2 copper contacts across the starter solenoid. That's what operates the starter. Great pics.

Quoted from Rogue

^ I'm not sure what that port actually does

I wonder if it is a thermal expansion port?  As the starter motor has to generate a lot of torque, the gears heat up and the there needs to be venting of the air within the housing?  Just a thought.

Quoted from scdevon

Yes. Nice job. The replacement contacts have more contact area and should last longer. Just FYI, it shouldn't matter if the contact touches the wire in the upper part of the photo since the wire is in electircal contact with the copper contact anyway. The plunger connects the 2 copper contacts across the starter solenoid. That's what operates the starter. Great pics.

The main problem was that the contacts weren't sitting flush against that area because of the wire.  I didn't want to put pressure on that wire or break it, hence the notch.

Quoted from datsa

I wonder if it is a thermal expansion port?  As the starter motor has to generate a lot of torque, the gears heat up and the there needs to be venting of the air within the housing?  Just a thought.

No, that pic was of the intake manifold.  There's a smaller, fifth port on the end of the IM nearest the distributor.  I think someone at TN said it was part of the EGR system.

What you're describing sounds like the small cylindrical thing next to the rubber cover that I coated with liquid electrical tape.  I also coated that cylinder, whatever it is.

Holy crap this thread turned into a goldmine!!

Thanks for all the info i have been dragging my feet about getting started on mine but this is great motivation

OK, so I started working on the all trac tonight.. didn't get very far at all since I'm beat from work. I have the airbox and tubing off, but even so I can barely even see the starter much less get to the bolts to get it out. I will go out and start moving around those heater hoses tomorrow to see if that helps at all.

Seems like taking off the intake manifold would make things easier, even if there is more work involved..

I think you're supposed to disconnect the negative battery cable before messing with the starter... make sure you do that!  The two bolts holding the starter in, one is accessed near the distributor (I believe it was behind a hose or wire loom), and the other is facing the other way, meaning the head of the bolt is under the intake manifold.  Someone at TN drew up a diagram that helped...

Nice pic.  Also, this view is rear-view facing forward.  You may need to disconnect the signal cable that goes to the center differential.

To find the starter, after removing the air cleaner, reach under from the driver's side with your right hand: you should feel a cylinder just under the intake manifold.  That is the starter main gear housing.  The attached starter solenoid housing is facing down and more towards the front, tucked between the engine block and the starter OSGR housing.  I'll look around for some pics.